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UPDATED: (Grand)parents’ rights?
Posted By katie allison granju
I was lucky enough to have (and still have) a really great relationship with my grandparents, who basically helped raise me. And my four children, too, have very involved, loving grandparents who play huge roles in their daily lives. I am a big fan of grandparents.
But as a parent myself, I believe the decision as to whether grandparents - or any individual who is not my child’s other legal parent - should have any relationship with my child should be my decision, not the court’s.
That’s why I was very surprised to see that conservative blogger David Oatney is supporting a campaign to change Tennessee law to allow grandparents the right to petition courts to have visitation with their grandchildren. If a parent does not want to allow grandparents access to his or her children, well then that’s unfortunate for the grandparent in question, but parental rights trump that misfortune, in my opinion.
And as conservatives are generally all about parents - not the courts or the schools or doctors or the “nanny state” - having ultimate say over how their children’s lives will be conducted, it really doesn’t make sense to me to hear a social conservative say he’s in favor allowing a grandparent and a judge to make an end run around a parent’s authority.
Your thoughts?
UPDATED: Another very conservative blogger apparently agrees with Oatney.
Again, this makes no sense to me.
And in re-reading the post, I have to wonder if the references to divorced and “out-of-wedlock” parents aren’t part of the issue here for conservatives. Do they believe single parents have less of a right to call the shots on behalf of their own children than married parents in traditional families do?
Apr 7th, 2008
I can imagine situations where grandparents may have been asked to fill a parental-type role, if the true parents are unfit, addicts, or are in some other kind of similarly neglectful capacity. In that case, I think a court should consider allowing contined access to the grandparent, even if the parents don’t like it. However, in the scenario described by Mr. Oatney, I absolutely disagree. A fit parent should have ultimate authority for their child’s wefare.
If this were true, there would be a lot of abuse victims made to hand their kids over to their own abusers.
My children’s FIL is a convicted pedophile, which makes me lucky- I have a paper record to prove he is a danger to my kids. What if he was *not* convicted- as the vast majority of incest perps are… and petitioned for rights?
Scary.
Interesting issue. From cursory review of the two posts you link to, they appear identical, or nearly so. It sounds more like a response based on “my dang son isn’t pushing for enough visitation and I never get to see my grandchild” sort of basis.
I think the two blog posts are indeed identical - but the second one was showing support for the opinions voiced by the first one. And both guys are social conservatives who blog.
-Katie
I know one thing: I’d hate for my in-laws, as much as I love them, to have parenting rights over my children. They’re my children, not my in-laws.
I do find it odd that conservatives are trying to give the courts more power to control my children. I find it odd that conservatives are trying to take away some of my rights as a parent.
And yes, I do think they’re rights, as opposed to priviledges. Parents have the right to parent their children and have say over who else can have access to them.
I was thinking along the same lines as Cathy. What about the parents who aren’t allowed near their children? You’re going to tell me that all their parents would abide by that? I could see a lot of potential for parents who are only supposed to see their kids with court-appointed supervision using this as a work-around. Grandma and Grandpa gets the kids for the weekend and scary Mommy comes over to spend time with them.
That seems like a nightmare.
I also agree with Katie that this seems to be about some weird anxiety about unmarried parents.
I can see both sides of this. Especially in the case of divorce or out of wedlock. If the grandparents have been involved in the child’s life and the breakup of the parents is awful, and you know those things can get nasty, then is it fair to the grandparents and children who love them to be used as a pawn with no say so just to get back at the other parent. I think the ability to ask should be there, and a parent of course has the right to lay out why they do not want their child to see the grandparents. In the scenario that Aunt B. mentions - I would say a situation where the parent is limited to supervised visits then the grandparents would have to be as well to keep that from happening. If they really just want to spend time with their grandchildren, then they should be able to accept (except - i can’t ever remember which one is correct) that.
There have been many cases in the news lately, which you should know about Katie, where parents simply disappear, or don’t disappear but are not capable of raising children, leaving the grandparents holding the bag.
Without having read this article, I would assume it is about such. If a grandparent is responsible for a child after picking up the responsibility from a deadbeat parent, they should be able to make legal decisions. I would guess it is a simple as that.
What we are asking for is NOT, I repeat NOT for grandparents to have custodial rights…and not even for grandparents to be guaranteed visitation rights. As it stands now, any grandparent can petition the court for visitation, but in the VAST majority of cases, the petition is ignored by the court. All we are asking is that those petitions be heard. Absolutely, parental rights are fist and foremost and should remain so. But when a grandparent is denied visitation simply because the child’s mother can’t stand the father of her child (or vice-versa), and the resentment is toward the father and not the paternal grandparents, should the paternal grandparents still be denied the ability to see the child…even if only occasionally? It’s a hard pill to swallow either way you look at it…but all we are asking is that it BE LOOKED AT.
Nicole-
I am sure that’s an extremely painful and disappointing situation for your family, but I still have to say that in my opinion, the competent custodial parent gets to decide who has a relationship with his/her child. His or her motivations for making that decision (religious, personal, etc) are no one’s business but that parent’s.
I understand that others hold different opinions on this.
-Katie
the original blog entry stated: “Where there is an out-of-wedlock birth concerned, the non-custodial parent (very often, but not always the father) isn’t always responsible enough to press the courts for their parental right to visit their child and try to have a relationship with them. If the non-custodial parent doesn’t press for their rights, the grandparents have no right under present law to petition the courts for any kind of visitation with their grandchildren, and have no real rights unless something terrible should happen to both living parents.”
If their son got someone pregnant, isn’t married to her, and isn’t pushing for his rights, then the grandparents need to step back and look at reparenting their existing child, and working on that relationship first. THEN when you get your son straightened out where he’s a better parent and more ‘responsible’ as they put it, think about your relationship with your grandkids. Don’t just dump your son and focus your love on the grandkids. HE needs your attention first, if he’s that irresponsible.
One of the most prominent cases related to this issue in recent years was the Perry March case, where the Levine family petitioned the court to see their grandchildren. March was, for years, widely suspected of killing his wife. With no evidence to convict him [until recently], he took his kids and moved to Mexico. [He's now in prison and kids with the grandparents in question.]
I would argue, that while heartbreaking, this type of case is the exception rather than the rule. While my children are fortunate to have WONDERFUL grandparents, I can imagine any number of situations where a good parent would want to limit, supervise or cut off grandparents’ visits with a child. Just as a good parent might with anyone who turns out to be a negative influence. Unless the parent is proven in court to be unfit, no one else should have a say. This is crazy to even have to discuss.
I would imagine that this could go either way. I am with the person who saw “any number of situations that contact would need to be limited”. Especially in the case of say, a sex offender. Absolutely sane parents would need to be able to limit this. BUT on the other side of the fence you have situations where unmarried people create a child and then proceed to hate each other forever. Unfortunately, due to the moral climate today, this isn’t at all uncommon. An assumption is made that the custodial parent could never ever be just plain old acting spitefully. Both scenarios are possible. And either way this falls, its possible for people to get screwed either way. To be honest, since the possibility of forcing kids to spend time with say, a child molester, is quite a bit worse than missing out on grandparents because mom is a spiteful b*tch that wants to hurt the babydaddy any way she can…I regretfully would have to fall on the side of being against the grandparents rights thing. Consider this to be yet another reason why its very good to limit your procreation and activities that could lead to procreation to relationships involving lifetime commitment. People are so busy defending their “right” to have sex however and with whoever they want to that they forget that very often, it is the kid that results from that act that pays the price in some fashion or another, either by being aborted, having adoption issues or living with the myriad of fallout from the mother having never had any kind of permanent commitment to the father. Nonmarital sex is claimed to be a “victimless” sin, but is it really?
I get your point and I’m sure that happens, Liz. But neither are children well served by being victims of a court battle at the hands of their grandparents. Sometimes the best you can do is be available, but try to accept when someone doesn’t actually want your help. It’s just not up to the grandparents.
What really horrifies me here is how interventionist and nanny-state this position is. How dare a court decide who my children are and aren’t allowed to see? Are my children healthy? Happy? Then it’s none of yours, the court’s, or any grandparents’ business, unless I choose to include you in my children’s life. Period.
What about the spiteful non-custodial parent using his/her parents to petition the courts and place a burden of legal defense on the custodial parent? I sure as heck would resent being hauled into court by my in-laws.
Icreekmo…I am with you. I think I said the lesser of two evils is the grandparents being cut off. Sad as it is. If the alternative is that a child molester could twist the legal process around to demand time with the grandkids, then that’s the price you pay to keep the kiddos safe. And yes, I can totally see the spiteful thing going both ways. This is, as I said, one of the things that people don’t think about when they are proclaiming their right to copulate with whoever they want, no matter their future intentions with that person.
>Nonmarital sex is claimed to be a…sin
says you.
Someone should ask the children (those who are now grown) what it’s like to be denied a relationship with their grandparents while those grandparents are still living, only to find out as an adult that their grandparents died before they ever got a chance to meet them.
I would imagine it depends on the situation. What is sad is that a lot of very different situations could get poured into the same mold. I am sure there are cases where parents are doing their best to keep kids from dangerous grandparents. I am sure there are also cases where the adult kids are just being petty. Anyone on either side who denies the existence of either a)situations where grandkids need to be protected from grandparents or b)parents using their kids against their own parents is sticking their heads in the sand. it would be nice if these things could be decided on a case by case basis and if the outcome were truly dependent on right and wrong rather than on which side can afford the better lawyer.
Hi. I just happened to look at your site, and I just happen to have a friend for whom this very law is a life saver. Her sister was in a terribly abusive marriage, left the husband (at last), but died of breast cancer before she could finalize a divorce, leaving behind a 4 year old son. The father is a deadbeat with violent tendencies and a possible drug problem and has sworn that their child will never see his mother’s family again. The only way this family can keep an eye on the child is through grandparent visitation, so they sued for, and thankfully won, that right. The grandparents are the main hope this child has of any help if abuse or neglect occurs, as we are all afraid it will.
PS My friend and I are very liberal, if that matters.
Well
thank you. This is why I said every case is different. for every person who doesn’t want the kid around the grandparents, then there are others for whom it is the exact opposite. One can only pray that those in positions to make these legal decisions are of sound mind and don’t have their heads up their butts.
What happened to the other conservative that agreed with Oatney? It would seem that their views on this subject are no longer to be found. Sounds like someone was told to dummy up.
well oatney is oooo right
This is to all grandparents: You should respect the wishes of the parents, because they are now the parents “not you” When you are told not to give your grandchild things the parents don’t want them to have, you shouldn’t! If you have the additude you are the grandparent and you will do what you want, then I think you don’t have the right to see them at all! Or at least be able to keep them without the parents supervising.
anonymous said…
This is the mother i let them see her once a week every tuesday she missed last tuesday because i work and i go to school, i am doing the best i can, they see her more than my own father does, not because i don’t want him a part of her life but because i have a lot of irons in the fire, this week they did not see her because i was very hurt by this blog and i thought they understood that i am trying to do so much while being the best mother i possibly can, also i felt very violated by the frequent unannounced random stops at my house dare i say even harrassed, if i gave each set of grandparents more than one day a week between school and work i would have no alone time with my child and i feel like our bonding time is very important, and Gail get you facts straight he sees her more than alot of people and she is not losing out anywhere she has more people that love than any baby i have ever seen and i mean truely love her there is no pretending here, i think you all are being very unfair to me, i m tired, i’m so very tired, can’t you just give me a break, are you so unreasonable that we can’t miss one week without you flipping out and creating crap like this, and i hope all this proved to you that there aren’t thousands of people out there to support you, also i am very tired of people threatening to take me to court, also i told your family about her when i was three weeks pregnant and as far as you expecting me to trust you how was this blog suppossed to develop any trust, and we have discussed and you were told from the begining that visitation would always be supervised, you have been explained the reasons why, also Nana tommie as she as so decided to name herself against my wishes, has informed several people that she isn’t sure of the childs paternity, and let me point out as other people have as well, i don’t have to let you see her at all and you should be happy with the what visitation you do get it is more than alot of grandparents get, so please if you want to do whats best for the baby quit threatening and harrassing her mother, I realize all this was to make people feel sorry for you and can’t afford the time it takes to deal with some stupid blog
do you ( ALL ) have toes that grow together ?
I’M LAUGHING OUT LOUD.
So are alot of people
well oatney 0000 must right or where are you at on this ? and where is strat talk on this ? have you all ben told to dummy up or what?
I am a single mother of two great kids and I am fighting this battle now. My so called mother potitioned the court for grandparents rights. She won that case and now she has potitioned the court for custody. The Judge due to his byass against single mothers gave temp custody to her. He did not listen to the facts, such as she has a record of child abuse, and drug addiction. I have been raising my kids alone for along time. I don’t abuse or neglect them. I don’t do drugs and I work. I don’t use the system to support my kids but I have been made out to be a bad mother because I am single and don’t own a home. This Judge has taken my daughter and given the grandmother all rights. I have seen my daughter two times in three months and there is nothing I can do about it. My daugter wants to live there because the grandparents don’t say no and buy her everything. The next court date keeps getting moved and I’m running out of money for the attorney bills. The court system is only for the people with money and because I work I can’t get legal aid. I dont know where to turn for help financially and emotionally. I live in Ohio where gradually parents are loosing all there rights and noone will help.
Hi I hope someone can give you a proper answer to your question. It seems that you have had strong alegations made which were untrue and it has all esculated. I just came back from holiday with the sister and and my partners mother. I have had points raised about how I looked after my baby on holiday in a confined environent. I forgot things the heat got to me here and there and her routine was disturbed and she had just started crawling and i turned my back for one second and she was off the bed. I breastfed her for six months and she is my first child I own a house and am a full time mother and they are trying to say I’m unfit because of a bad experience on holdiay turning my partner against me. She is never on a bed at my house she has a big lounge to crawl in. I just found out i’m pregnant again so it does explain my mistakes I made on holiday and I told my partners family on holiday that i was pregnant and they still treated me badly. I know what they are saying is just talk and they would not actually report me butThey are even threatning to report me. I just don’t understand what they think they are doing. Can I stop my partner taking my daughter over to see them?
I believe that every case is different. But when there are loving grandparents denied by a mentally ill parent the right to love their grandchildren it is so sad for those children to be jailed from that love. How sick is it that a mother’s jealouy deny’s that the child might love a grandparent more than she that she deny’s that right. How sad for the children to not expierence that genuine love and how unhealthy is it in the long run- if the mother is like that what else will she deny them for a well balanced mentally healthy future for those children. If the grandparent can get letters of who they are and how loving they are they should be able to petition the court for that right to love! The son has to live with the unhealthy wife and if he makes waves she threatens to move a way with them- it is sick knowing the grandparents and their pure hearts like I do it is crime- a theif of the heart on time that will never be regained.
What a lot of this stuff seems to boil down to is adults problems with each other-THE CHILDREN ALWAYS PAY THE PRICE!I’m not talking about abusive,molesting,addicts-parents or grandparents.My husband and I were fine for in-laws when it came to getting money, cars,etc.for our daughter-in-law.But once she divorced our son(justifiably)-she ripped our granddaughter away from us. I thought we could still go on and have some sort of relationship for the good of everyone-we still treated our ex-DIL with love-but she turned out to be VERY vindictive and cruel.She is taking all her anger towards our son out on us- he’s a deadbeat dad -that has made us heartsick also.They are both so selfish and they don’t see / care how this hurts their daughter-they are cutting her off from a lot of her family on this side that love her. We tried to get visitation from the courts but all she did was make up a bunch of lies.ALL we want to do is see our beloved granddaughter.Sometimes it IS the parents /grandparents being vindictive! P.S.- All this stuff about in/out of wedlock in previous posts is just people using it as an excuse to be hateful!
I also believe the “natural parents or adoptive parents” should have the right to determine who they want their children to see. Though I do understand how some parents can be very spiteful and use their children as pawns to use as leverage and punishing tools used against the grandparents or any other relative who may love their children. But what would you say when the parents do not have custody and it is the legal custodians who will not allow visitations to the maternal or paternal grandparents? To make it even more complicated. Let’s say there are three siblings. Two are in the custody of the maternal grandparents and one is with another relative who is trying to adopt just the one sibling that is in their care. Let’s say these relatives have stopped all visitations between the grandparents and the two other siblings because the maternal grandparents did not agree to the adopttion and have tried to stop it. The maternal grandparents cannot afford an attorney because the maternal grandmother no longer works so she can stay home to care for the two other siblings. This is a real case and it is tragedy for everyone.
katie allison granju said,
April 8th, 2008 at 7:01 am
Nicole-
I am sure that’s an extremely painful and disappointing situation for your family, but I still have to say that in my opinion, the competent custodial parent gets to decide who has a relationship with his/her child. His or her motivations for making that decision (religious, personal, etc) are no one’s business but that parent’s.
I understand that others hold different opinions on this.
-Katie
****************************************************************************
How much do you think we, as grandparents can take? My daughter had one baby with one guy who is into drugs. They would fight all the time upsetting the baby!! Is this healthy? WEll, she married another guy. Was married for 3 months and tossed him out, then found out she was pregnant. Now keep in mind my daughter is 27 years old!!!!!. As it turned out she never let her hubby be involved in the pregnancy NEVER even told him when the baby was born. My second grand daughter has my last name. Oh, by the way when all this is going on the drug lord was back in the picture. She tossed out her husband of 3 months to go back with the druggie. After things didn’t work out for the third time with the druggie guess who comes back home?…My husband and I took care of our grand daughters for months! AND, I have to mention ALL the money we dished out to their household!… THOUSANDS!!!!!!!! All to try to get the druggie help when he was taking the rent money and buying drugs!. My grand daughter would come in my bedroom and say “Nonnie I hungery” when she came out of her mothers room!!!… My daughter is lazy and NOT a good parent! Because of a tiff we had her druggie boyfriend called the police and I WENT TO JAIL!! I worry all the time who is watching MY GRANDBABIES when these two scumbags are “suppose” to be working!. YES TENNESSEE NEEDS STRONGER GRANDPARENT RIGHTS FOR THE SAKE OF OUR GRANDBABIES!!
One more tid bit… Shes still living with the druggie and still married to the other guy. I wonder how this teaching will be good for the babies.
Fit v unfit
If a parent is found to be unfit then yes family should be allowed to file court proceeding to visit the child.
However, these laws allow FIT parents to be sued. Do you know how much legal fees are to fight for children?
I am a single FIT PARENT. I have a college education and have two children. For years I endured the abuse from my parents, threats, accusations, and public humiliation. While on a visit with my biological parents, my daughter was taken to the emergency room. This along with many other reasons, the domestic abuse center assisted me with a formal written demand to have no contact with my biological parents and included in the demand was for my biological parents to have no contact with my children.
This lead to my biological parents, to file for visitation of my children, in the court papers they accused me of being an unfit parent and mentally challenged.
The day of the hearing for visitation, I was served with new court papers in front of the hearing officer that accused me of abuse, neglect, inadequate housing, and having a bipolar disorder. The papers also stated that my daughter had mental issues that we left untreated.
My home is a three bedroom townhome. Neither my daughter nor I have ever been diagnosed with any mental issues. I have never been convicted or charged with a crime. I have no history of drug or alcohol abuse. I have provided for my children since the day they were born. There is no abuse or neglect and never any reports of neglect or abused filed. This was slander on legal documents presenting in court.
Based on allegations and no factual evidence my children were taken away from my care and place with my biological parents. The judge state which I have the court transcripts, “PROVE TO ME THAT YOU ARE A FIT PARENT AND DESERVE YOUR CHILDREN.” Then I was told “FIT PARENTS DON’T ALWAYS GET CUSTODY OF THEIR CHILDREN.”
I am entitled to visitation with my children every 4 weeks.
I lost my children because I no longer wanted to be abused by my biological parents. I would have thought that a 38 year old woman with a great job, excellent benefits, home owner, voter, of sound mind would be allowed to say that she no longer wishes to be insulted, humiliated, and degraded by her own parents. The domestic abuse center that I was working with for 2 years prior to the letter being written in the first place thought that I had the right to say NO.
According to the LAW on grandparents rights. I do not have the right to refuse to be abused. The law does not require evidence of accusations just that the grandparents have genuine care and concern for the children.
Because I no longer could take the abuse inflicted to my family, I have paid the ultimate price, the life of my children.
Grandparents Rights Law do not serve the children nor the family. These laws sweep innocent children up and place them in the center of an adult conflict. FIT parents are being forced into legal battles for the right to raise their own children. To answer the question above, I know parents who have spent over ¼ million dollars and have gone up to the state supreme court. I have spent over $50,000 dollars before the domestic abuse center attorney took the case.
As it was stated by the U.S. Supreme court as long as there is a fit parent than the court should not be involved in a conflict between grandparents and fit parents.
Just think if you allow any FIT parents decision to be question then you have questioned your own parenting skills!